GUEST BIO:

Founder, CEO and Director of Video Results at  Viewability, Tom Breeze is a YouTube video ad expert as well as an author, consultant, and investor. After earning a BS in Psychology and Communication at Eastbourne College he went on to earn another BS as well as a MS in Psychology at the University of Leeds, Post graduation, Breeze began consulting for Inside Performance and started TomBreeze.com a company that focused on helping people become confident and competent at public speaking.

TAKEAWAYS

Why what works on FaceBook rarely works on YouTube -- and how to adapt one to successfully run on the other platform.

Discover the 3 core components of a successful YouTube ad campaign -- and which one is most essential.

The surprising  psychological  differences  between a “check out shopper”, an “in-store shopper”, and a “window shopper” and  what you must do to convert each of them.

How to use video to harness the power of unconscious desires to get people to buy something they might not have even been aware they wanted.

Plus why YouTube videos are going to epic lengths -- like 30 minutes plus -- to convert viewers into buyers.

TRANSCRIPT

Speaker 1 (00:01):

In this episode, Tom breeze breaks down a winning YouTube ad. That's driven over 4 million views, Tom spending over a hundred thousand dollars a day and is 100% performance-based and is actually fronting the media and the advertising cost for his clients and getting paid a CPA and a commission. It's a beautiful model. Absolutely love it. If you're an ad agency indefinitely, take notes on Tom's model. If you're an advertiser or a brand looking to open up YouTube ads, Tom is the legend. All right, let's dive into it. So, um, when we broke this down, we, we look at this first act in the video cause it kind of continues on from that burning guitar, uh, moves into, uh, Tony around the campfire. And the, the idea being is that that come fire scene at night, when Tony is talking to you, you kind of want to be

Speaker 2 (01:07):

[inaudible].

Speaker 1 (01:07):

You're listening to the rich add poor ed podcast, where we break down the financial principles that rich advertisers are deploying today to turn advertising into profit and get tons of traffic to their websites without killing their cash. These advertisers agencies, affiliates brands are responsible for managing over a billion dollars a year in ad spend. You'll hear about what's working for them today. They're rich ads and we'll roast their Epic failures and crappy ads on the internet with poor ads. Let's get into it. Welcome to another episode of the rich dad, poor ed podcast. This is your host, Zach Johnson, and on today's show, we've got the founder and CEO of viewability, the agency and training company that specializes in YouTube ads. I think Dylan, this is the first, uh, I think YouTube ads like media buyer and expert that we've had on the show. I'm, I'm, I'm pretty pumped.

Speaker 1 (01:58):

So this will be a breath of fresh air. Don't you think? Oh yeah. Video is so King. So, I mean, I'm so pumped to dive into this, especially being YouTube because it's, it's a foreign language for me, that's for sure. Well, I mean, what's also unique about, uh, today's guest is that, you know, he truly is a pay for results and performance-based, um, you know, in, in the, in the world of thousands of agencies, uh, very few actually, uh, deliver on this, um, most are, you know, a base fixed retainer and a percentage of spend, uh, at best. And, uh, I think that, um, these guys literally are fronting the media for their clients and getting paid out, uh, on a CPA on a, on a commission basis. So, uh, he definitely, uh, is worth his weight and what he has to say about YouTube ads. So I'm pretty pumped to have him on the show without further ado, Tom breeze, welcome to the rich add poor add podcast. How are you doing

Speaker 3 (03:02):

Very good. Zach and Dylan. Yeah. Good buddy. How are things

Speaker 1 (03:06):

Good, man? I, uh, not only are the first YouTube ads, but you are this second, uh, media buyer, an agency in the UK that we've had on the show. So congrats.

Speaker 3 (03:17):

There we go. Okay, perfect. Yeah, I expect it now.

Speaker 1 (03:24):

I love it, man. Well, you know, for anybody that's been around in spending any meaningful amount of money on advertising, I think that, you know, they've heard of you, uh, through one form channel of another, um, and you spoke at digital marketers events. You've obviously, you know, wrote the book, uh, but tell everybody a little bit about what you're up to most recently and, uh, and what you're up to these days.

Speaker 3 (03:50):

Yeah. So, um, the agency's going from strength to strength. So that's been a big part of our growth. Um, we've kind of kept our head down and stayed in our lane for quite some time. So we, in the past, we've kind of dabbled a little bit with Facebook ads and that sort of thing. And we know we can do some good work there, but we realize now like probably about four or five years ago that like YouTube ads is off thing. Like that's just what we know really well. And we just go deeper and deeper into that world. Um, so I still thought like we're learning tons every single day and we just apply that learning to all clients all the time. So yeah, we're lucky to be performance based because it means we really do follow it. We partner with our clients as opposed to be an agency where you're doing the work for a client and the scenarios we get are such that we can, we can be in a position where we fund tests and things where we can kind of say, right, well, let's, let's dump a load of money into that test and see if it actually works or not with a client would never get a sign off on that.

Speaker 3 (04:51):

We can do that. Um, and it allows us to learn so quickly. So yeah, we're, we're focusing on kind of diving deep into creative, how we can turn creative into more of an SOP and more predictable because sometimes it feels like it's like dark magic that people can create these amazing videos and how do they do it? And I come from a very psychological background. So I'm always looking at kind of what makes people tick, what makes people go, yes, I want this thing. Um, and how do we structure that so that every ad we create is able to do the job and get conversions at scale as well. So yeah, we're always testing, always finding new things. We've just started doing a lot more in the kind of training and consultancy space as well. So yeah, we're kind of hoping that your viewability becomes the home of YouTube advertising and we just got our heads down, working hard on that.

Speaker 1 (05:40):

Awesome man. And how much ad spend do you guys advise on manage and really oversee you think on an annual basis these days

Speaker 3 (05:51):

An annual basis is difficult? Oh, I could probably run the numbers, but we, we kind of oversee around about a hundred thousand dollars a on YouTube advertising. Um, in terms of advice, I'm always like trying to spend more, that's kind of the, uh, the advice I give to most people. Um, and if you can get YouTube working really well, it's, it's a great platform to scale on, like it doesn't work for every industry at scale I must've met, um, you can get it to work for most businesses, but there's gonna be certain industries and certain niches that you can work in that really do scale very well and predictably as well. So, um, when you kind of work in those spaces, it's not difficult to start spending 15, 15, $20,000 a day, um, at scale and at profit as well. So it's, uh, it's, it's a great platform to be on and yeah, you can, you can spend a lot of money on that profitably and we're very much direct response focused.

Speaker 1 (06:44):

That's awesome, man. Yeah. I mean a hundred K a day is, is nothing to scoff at on in terms of YouTube ads and volumes. So congrats on being able to hit that level of, uh, uh, level of scale. Well, let's, let's dive into it, man. I want to know what's working now. I want to know what is this rich ad that we're going to be diving into today?

Speaker 3 (07:09):

Yeah, so this ad is actually from one of our clients we've worked with for a long time. Um, Tony Polecastro, so he teaches guitar online and there's no one really better. Um, and, um, when it comes to running ads on YouTube, it's, it's kind of it, you've got to keep an eye on what actually works on the platform itself. Like I think a lot of people are advertising on various platforms bit like Facebook. And I think the classic story at the moment is a brand is doing really well on Facebook. And then they don't feel quite so comfortable on that platform or having all of their eggs in one basket, so to speak. So they're going to look into diversify and they look at YouTube and think, okay, well that's the next obvious place to go? And then it becomes, well, Facebook and YouTube are just not the same beast.

Speaker 3 (07:56):

It's a very different platform altogether. Um, and so it needs that different approach. Like a lot of the time I tend to look at the three core areas of, of getting a YouTube ad campaign to work really well is like the offer itself, um, which is kind of bounced to the, the positioning of the offer and the margins and the mindset really behind it, the actual ad creative. So what are you gonna do in the actual video ad itself to make it really pull the numbers it needs to, and then also the kind of the campaign types and how to make sure that you're structuring your targeting and your campaigns in the right way to, to really grow and scale. Um, so that's kinda like the three areas we tend to look at. And when we look at bringing in, uh, Tony Polecastro Castro's guitars online, which is a sort of his habits on onto YouTube, we really need to start thinking about like what it takes to, to get someone to convert.

Speaker 3 (08:50):

Um, which sounds obvious, but like with YouTube, you do tend to find that you've got a very, very different audience. So with YouTube, you tend to find people that are going there because they're looking to know something or do something or buy something. Those are the kind of three core search based areas. And then you also have like interest based audiences as well. Um, and so when you know that you can think, right, well, depending on what audience we're looking to target, you can create videos for those different audiences. So I tend to kind of break down the audience too, and I try and get really into the psychology of it by imagining the top of the person in front of me. Um, so the, the way I look that is to say, well, there's three different types of customer on YouTube there's. And I think you'd like, if you imagine, if you had an, a bricks and mortar store, for example, and people coming in, so the store you're going to have what I will call them, checkout shopper.

Speaker 3 (09:40):

They're the people that were kind of product under their arm looking to actually just make the purchase. They've got credit card in hand. They may have a few questions to the sales rep just to say, Hey, what's the guarantee on this again? And they're just looking for a little bit more assurance. Sure. They feel comfortable with that purchase. And that's kind of like the checkout shopper and that really, that kind of comes down to remarketing. So getting back in front of people, you already know and make sure you're targeting those. And when you're kind of focusing on that audience, you don't need to have the big, great, big attention grabbing headline to the actual ad itself. It's more just build that relationship with them and just make sure they feel comfort. Uh, cause that's what you're doing real life. And that's kind of how I think about YouTube.

Speaker 3 (10:22):

Um, you, then you have like, the second audience would be like the in-store shopper they'd come in store. They probably know they're looking for something, but they still don't know what to buy just yet. They're more, they're looking for a solution to a problem, but they don't know what solution might be right for them. And that's what they will talk to a sales rep. And those in-store shoppers can be targeted with things like search based, targeting like placement targeting, keyword, targeting custom intent targeting or in-market targeting. And, um, those people are looking for those solutions. So that will kind of mean that if you're talking to those people, you would talk to them because if you're a sales rep, you're just going to try and be helpful and give advice and value so people can make better decisions. And obviously if you're doing that, they're going to want to take your, um, take your advice and go with what products you would be recommend.

Speaker 3 (11:08):

Um, and then you've got looking at the next audience, which is like the window shopper. I consider it like those are the people outside the store looking in and thinking, okay, this might actually be quite interesting. I'm somewhat interested in this, what this product, what this store has to sell, but I'm not ready to go and buy just yet. And with that sort of interest based audiences, you can, you can use like custom affinity audiences or affinity audiences on, on YouTube. And they can be really dialed in based on people's the URLs that people visit, all the apps they have on their phone or the places they go in real life. Um, you can, you can target people based on that type of, um, data that Google have. And for those people, those window shoppers, you kind of need to grab attention. It's a lot more kind of attention grabbing headline type videos, grab that attention, bring them in, um, and begin that customer journey there.

Speaker 3 (12:01):

They may not go and buy right there. And then, but it's great for brand awareness, getting to know who you are and then start looking at that conversion, um, journey for them. But then when you, when you know that, and you can, you can think about that targeting. It starts to mean that right now we know what sort of creative to put together because we know who we're talking to and kind of how we want to talk to them. Um, and that's where you get a lot of ads on YouTube that just missed the Mark completely because they're trying to just put their message in front of people, but not really start with the user's questions. They start with where they're at, because if you start there, it doesn't make the videos a lot more powerful.

Speaker 1 (12:36):

Um, all right. So talk to me about the video ad itself here, because like in the very first like three seconds, the guitar is literally getting lit on fire, which definitely is grabbing your attention. Um, but it's, you know, you really thought it through because it's a three and a half minute video, right. It's not something that was just like, I've seen these ads all over Facebook, right? Like Dean Graziosi and, and Russell Brunson did the book funnels where they were just lighting their books on fire. Uh, but you really evolved off of it. And, uh, something's working because there's 4 million views. So like break this down for me.

Speaker 3 (13:13):

Yeah. I mean, we weren't, we were obviously aware of the Dean Grasiozi in the, um, Russell Bronson book funnels and things like the book is on fire. It's that popular type thing. Um, we, we came at it from a different angle, um, and happened to come across like a good pattern interrupt to the very beginning of the video. But like the messaging was, is like, what are the words that come up? Um, kind of say like your guitars as useless as plywood basically, and you might as well burn it, um, with where you're at right now. That's what it feels like for a lot of people. But the, what we're looking to do is, is make sure that as quickly as we can, we try and grab people's unconscious desires. So these are the things that they may not be aware that they really really want, but if we portray them and show them, they're like, yeah, yeah, that's what I want.

Speaker 3 (14:00):

That's what I want. So, um, when we broke this down, we, we look at this first act in the video, cause it kind of continues on from that burning guitar and moves into a Tony around the campfire. And the, the idea being is that that campfire scene at night, when Tony is talking to you, you kind of want to be him. You want to be in that scenario, you want to be like, Hey, I would love to learn how to play the guitar so I can sit around a campfire and impress the girl. And I can, um, be with my family or be with my buddies and have a few beers and play the guitar and just like, just enjoy that moment for what it is. And it brings around a lot of community, a little bit of status as well. It kind of brings that identity out from people like, Hey, I'm also a guitar player.

Speaker 3 (14:47):

That's pretty cool. And what we like, what we're trying to emulate is that in that first scene, we kind of, there's three things we want to try and unlock. Really. We want someone to think as soon as they see that video, they want to say, I want to be that person doing that thing and feeling that emotion. Um, so when we, you can even apply this to things like Ty Lopez, his ads, where he's in the car, in the car with her, or in the garage with a guitar, it's like you see the cars and it doesn't appeal to everybody, of course, but you kind of, your unconscious mind is drawn in by the fact there's this cool cars and lots of wealth being shown. And that was consciously like, that's not really, for me, maybe unconsciously, you're still like, that's, that's kind of what I want though. And your unconscious can't stop that desire from happening. Right.

Speaker 1 (15:31):

There's all. I mean, there's also another component to this, which is, uh, Eric Carlson uses, uses this phrase or, um, use this phrase called the concept of use right? Of like there's a ton of ways you could benefit from guitar lessons. Right? Like whether somebody wants to start a band, somebody wants to like, you know, play a weekend gig at a bar. Um, you know, at FunnelDash like we had this, this dashboard tool that like, could have been used in thousands of different ways. Right? Like it could have been used to automate client reporting. It could have been used to like, just get to know your bet, the numbers better. But like the dashboard ultimately was most popularly, like across all customers was really being used to audit their clients, his ad spend. And here, I don't know, uh, Tony's audience like as well. However, I got to guess that the lion's share of the audience, like the number one use of his lessons is for the outcome and the use of being able to play, you know, that like whatever Weezer, YouTube, you know, YouTube, someone like, you know, on a Saturday night at the beach, right?

Speaker 1 (16:41):

Like that's, um, this, this concept of use in addition to everything you're saying Tom, which is the desirability aspect of it all.

Speaker 4 (16:51):

Yeah. And one thing I would even kind of bring into here as, I mean, shoot, I mean, I know back in college, the amount of times around a bonfire and somebody playing that guitar, I mean, I feel like y'all just made that picture perfect moments where it's like, that could be me, you know what I mean? So I think right on the head there.

Speaker 3 (17:05):

Yeah, exactly. Any ad we're creating, we want to have that feeling like, Oh, you want to be that person. Cause as soon as that happens, you kind of you're drawn in. You're like, Oh, I want to be that person. So we've just written another script for, um, a new client who's in the piano playing space. Um, and now that all of our clients are musicians by the way, but, and this just happens to be another client. Um, and we've got her, she's like an amazing at playing piano, like won all these awards and the top like Steinway stuff. And so she's got so much credibility, but we're starting out our ad off with her playing the piano, a Steinway, beautiful piano in the mountains. Um, we tried to do it on the beach, but we got to the mountains because of weather. And that sort of thing is more difficult by the, um, and the whole reason, like with drone footage and things like this, it doesn't, it's a bit of a production, but it doesn't cost a huge amount.

Speaker 3 (17:56):

Um, not like, not like the top level media kind of creatives. We're kind of, we like to try and keep things on a budget as much as we can, but like we have that, um, scene or being shot soon where it's like the drone footage and her just kind of losing herself, playing a guitar or playing the piano in the mountain side, there's a striking image and it grabbed it like breaks your attention. Cause you're like, you don't really see that very often, but immediately, like I want to, if you're into, get into wanting to play piano, you're like, I want to be her playing piano like that in the, in the mountains. Like I want to have that complete creative freedom. I want to have that feeling of like, just getting lost in the music because that's kind of what they crave. They crave that kind of creative freedom and being able to play the piano unconsciously and just be in that flow state.

Speaker 3 (18:42):

And so we're kind of showing that really quickly in the video. So it makes you just drawn in immediately and then we can start getting onto the scripts. Like I always think of storyboard first, get the visuals. Right. Cause that's the first thing you see and then the script afterwards. Um, and then that then compliments the storyboard rather than the other way around. I think a lot of people go script first and then try and storyboard it afterwards. But um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I tend to focus the other way around. Yeah, that is awesome. You're amazing. You're amazing. And he said that God is so different. It's, it's super nifty to kind of even think about, I love this. Oh my gosh, nifty. Really, really, we're going to say the word nifty on the rich end port. But

Speaker 5 (19:29):

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Speaker 1 (20:49):

Uh, let's talk, it wasn't poor ads. I mean, I mean, uh, I know you're, you're killing on YouTube ads, but you got to have some losers in there of like, Oh, we hear us. We have our fair share of loses for sure. Yeah. Break, break down this poor ed man. I want to know what, what doesn't work. Yeah. So with the, with the poor at, um, we were kind of, we didn't

Speaker 3 (21:15):

Confident with it going in any way, but we like to test pretty much everything we can and sometimes clients will say, Hey, this is working ridiculously well on Facebook for us. And we should use this on YouTube. Um, now not to say that the concept of the ad that you might have working really well on Facebook won't work on YouTube. There's some of the concepts of work, but it's been done in such a way where it just doesn't really fit the YouTube space. So a lot of like, so this ad here that we're talking about here is like, um, we've kind of cut the left-hand side. Well, first of all, it's a Facebook ad try and be repurposed into a YouTube video ad. And normally when it's like square or vertical video, we try and replace that. Cause obviously on YouTube, a lot of 69 by nine space, and you don't have text above the video or comments underneath, you literally just have the video playing as a we've gone on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (22:05):

There's not like a social element to it as more like running a TV ad. So when we get given like a vertical video or a square video, we have to kind of fill in the sides to make it make sense. And um, so we, we, we thought we'd be clever about it by saying right with that space that we need to fill in. If we're to move that square video to the side, we've got a load of space on the left-hand side. We thought we'd add in some testimonials and the reviews and a headline in there. And so we kind of like bring the, bring the farm back to Qatar and like a 4.9 out of five stars. It's kind of held there during the ad on the right-hand side, it's basically like a testimonial. Um, and someone like saying great things about the product and we don't got a bit of voiceover going on as well, but it was, it was very much what works on Facebook.

Speaker 3 (22:50):

Let's try and apply it to YouTube, like a testimonial ad. And even if we ran it as a remarketing ad, it still didn't work very well at all. But cold, it was just dreadful. It just doesn't work at all because it wasn't really written for YouTube. You gotta remember like people on YouTube looking for answers, looking for help. And they're not necessarily looking for stray away testimonial of your products. It's like, that's not necessarily what they want to see immediately. Um, they wanna know that you can provide value and help to them. And based on that, they'll continue the journey with you. So it's just a different platform and those ads very rarely work. And so yeah, this, this ad is basically doesn't even show anybody in the video. You can't even connect with anybody in the video, just literally just shows. Um, I mean, it's in hindsight, it's so easy to review right?

Speaker 3 (23:35):

To say, this is why it was so bad, but when he's like, like if I ask, I had to kind of say why it's not going to work, it'll be so much more difficult. Um, but, uh, yeah, the ad just bond, basically it was, I literally went through the account and found the worst ad and I was like, yeah, this is the worst ad we've run. Um, but you can kind of see why it's, it's just not, um, it's, there's nothing really going on. That's compelling. And it it's more just, um, the, the ad is trying to just show a testimonial on that. Testimonial is not going to pull the numbers we needed to.

Speaker 4 (24:05):

Yeah. This is a complete one 80 from the original average and that's wild. Cause yeah, I was like, this is, this is someone I would totally use on Facebook. The authority 700 reviews, the call to action, click the link below. I mean, this is super Facebook ad oriented. So I mean taking it to YouTube. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm learning more and more on what YouTube is now.

Speaker 3 (24:25):

The, the, I mean, one thing we did find that works really, really well with that, um, is, um, and we kind of did this quite a few years ago now. And so everyone seems to be doing it, which is, which is cool. I love that. Um, at the end of the video, what happens on YouTube? Sometimes it's like people listen to everything, every word you're saying, like everything you're saying, they kind of want to listen to everything because the viewer retention on YouTube is huge. So we're getting all these video, has it been longer and longer and longer? We're kind of testing like 30 minute ads at the moment. It's pretty crazy. Um, but the, at the end of the video, because people are listening in to everything you're saying what a lot of people do is just, don't finish off the video until you finished talking and then it like stops.

Speaker 3 (25:05):

But what happens on YouTube is like, if you let the video run out it, then nowadays it actually adds a little bit of a call to action. But, um, you, it just used to just load up the video you're about to watch. So, you know, when YouTube you're watching like a pre-roll ad, uh, you can be watching that video. And then, um, at the end of the video, um, th the video you're meant to be watching, um, like the pre-roll comes in front of the video, you're about to watch then, then when the pre-roll ad finishes, it just loads up the video you were meant to be watching. Um, and what ends up happening is that people were ready to click. They wanted a click, but they were listening to everything you said. And then by the time you stopped, they didn't have enough time to actually click to the website.

Speaker 3 (25:43):

Um, and so we added like an extra eight seconds onto the end of each video that we did, and just, it was kind of, we call it dead time, but we did a countdown timer from eight seconds out to count down to zero. And by adding that extra scarcity, we noticed like our click through rates, um, on some of our ads, like bumped up by like 35%, it was like 30 to 35%, uh, just by adding a countdown timer at the end of the video. And it was just edit thing. It wasn't anything just, just a quick edit thing. Um, and yeah, it's just not all of our ads are just improving just by doing that. That's pretty crazy.

Speaker 1 (26:16):

Oh, good. Old countdown timers. They'll never fail when in doubt, add a countdown timer. Oh man. That's awesome. Well, let's dive into this next segment. I, you know, you've got an interesting perspective here that, that I think you're going to bring to, you know, really understanding, you know, the, the nuances and, and having a really solid control over your finances, especially when you're the media, uh, for your clients. So you gotta have it dialed in not only on the tracking side, but also in how you're, um, you know, getting paid with, with, with clients, right? Like, what is that like? What goes all into that? Cause you're spending quite a bit on, on media there on behalf of your clients. And if, um, I don't know, like a few episodes prior, we were just had a talk media on Eric and he was talking about how he's seen a lot of agencies, like get in trouble with this situation where they're floating media for their clients and then their clients end up not paying for whatever reason. And then they're out, you know, sometimes like seven figures, um, and an, or at a minimum they're like significantly like hurting on cashflow because they're constantly bloating their, their clients spent. So like, I want to break all this down, not, yeah. Uh, so first start, I guess, by just telling us how you structure your, your, uh, your contracts with your, with your clients.

Speaker 3 (27:44):

Yeah. So the, the contracts, but it's okay. So like, if we go one step back, like we're all performance-based and we like to have that sort of relationship with clients one, because it sets up the client relationship rights. Um, we have to qualify clients really carefully. Uh, so we know we're working on the right projects that we can make money from. Um, but also we need to make sure we there's a level of trust there. So we don't ever have like long long-term contracts with clients. It's never, like we say, Hey, if you sign up with us, you're signed up for 12 months, 18 months, whatever it might be, we literally like, Hey, if you want to stop the ads, just stop the ads, just pay up and we're good to go. So like that, that, that would be the end of the contract. So we're kind of constantly proving our worth and making sure that we are doing a good job, obviously.

Speaker 3 (28:28):

Um, but it's very difficult to not do a good job when you're, performance-based because it's either working or it's not, um, it's not working. We don't really have much of a relationship there. Um, or you have to try and fix things or call it a day. Um, and we, haven't got a hundred percent success rate. We probably run about 80% success rate with projects we take on. Um, and so we try out some things, sometimes things work, some things don't work and that's just the way it can be and we're getting better and better at qualifying. Um, so we kind of know the niches that work well. Um, but when it comes down to the relationship we have with clients, so we don't, we do all the creative work, we spend the money on the ads, um, and they pay for results. And so the way we structured that typically is normally one of four ways.

Speaker 3 (29:10):

So it's either going to be a cost per lead model or a cost per sale model. Um, or it can be a, um, a rev share deal or profit share deal. It's, it's different for every client, but we just find it kind of a deal that works well, uh, for the client. They feel happy with it. We can kind of lock it in and we know we can scale. And that's kind of how we look at it when we, um, when we do it, we, we spend the money, we track things ourselves. And obviously we track things on the client side as well, and make sure that those numbers are not, it's not too much discrepancy in those numbers. We always go with the client numbers at the end of the day. Um, and then we basically invoice how it, like, say for example, it was, um, $5 a lead let's say, and we got a thousand leads.

Speaker 3 (29:56):

Then we ch we invoice the client $5,000 and hopefully we can get it in for less than that. Um, those numbers are arbitrary by the way, but, uh, you get the point and the, when we work with clients in that way, if we start to really scale, then we just have to start invoicing a little bit more regularly. So we don't just invoice on a, um, on a, uh, like either a monthly or every two weeks, we'll start invoicing every week. Um, we, we can only float for a week, uh, without having too much of an issue. So it never goes, um, quicker than the invoices are very rarely less than a week, but it means that that means we can keep on top of things. And, yeah, we've got burned a little bit in the past has been a few times where clients have had problems and haven't been able to pay, but when you're a week out and it's not the end of the world, um, well I say it's not the end of the world. If clients are listening. Yes, it is the end of what we want you to pay. Um, but you can, the risk and reward of, of running campaigns like that is that we, we worked out that we're much better off being a performance-based agency than not being a performance based agency, even with that risk.

Speaker 1 (31:02):

Yeah. That is, that's pretty awesome. And so what have you done to really, in terms of like spending at the card level, right? Like, do you guys just throw this all on like one Amex across all your accounts and then like, you know, like, like how do you really set some threshold there with your clients at certain levels of scale? And, um, you know, cause you're, you're not really like a full blown affiliate, right? Like you, you pretty much are using all their creative assets and they're kind of giving you some limits on, you know, how much they can handle or can't handle.

Speaker 3 (31:40):

Yeah, there'll be, there'll be budgetary concerns every now and again with clients that kind of comes down to the filtering thing. So sometimes clients will say, look, we don't want to spend more than 250,000 this month, or more than a hundred thousand or whatever it might be. There's different clients at different levels. Um, we, we tend to love to work with clients that say, Oh, if you can get it in for that price keeps scaling. So like online businesses tend to work very well with us. Um, especially if we get paid on a cost per sale model, Laura, uh, red share profit share deal because they literally can't lose money. So they're just like, well, just keep scaling. And they've not got any problems with the mentoree most of the time. So the, uh, those ones are just will scale and continue to scale as much as we can.

Speaker 3 (32:23):

Um, when, when we're doing the actual finance of it, then yeah, it goes all on one annex. Um, and we have backup cards. Should there be ever a problem? Cause obviously we can, we need to spend pretty aggressively. Um, but we just need to make sure that the buying power on that, on that account is strong. Um, so we have the Amex there, um, but we could easily put it through on just a normal card or bank card if we wanted to. Um, in fact, we're starting to look at different ways of doing this because obviously being in the UK, we have some clients in the pound Sterling, some clients, some dollars, um, some lines on us, um, Ozzy dollars and some on us dollars and some even Canadian dollars. Um, and so when we have all this different mix, we have to deal with currency conversion as well.

Speaker 1 (33:08):

Oh gosh.

Speaker 3 (33:11):

Another level of complexity. So the way, the way we do that now, and it's only been more of a recent thing, we've been making the switch because our Amex points aren't quite as valuable as they once work. Cause I used to use it, the travel and everything. Uh, and that was really valuable to just get either business or first class flights separately where all the time and just keep on using the points, not even worry about it. Um, but now that I can't travel anywhere with COVID at those points, just racking up on that, I don't think I'm ever going to about to use these points.

Speaker 1 (33:38):

So now

Speaker 3 (33:40):

I'm looking to you for advice by the way. Um,

Speaker 1 (33:43):

Yeah. Their ad card native advertisement here.

Speaker 3 (33:49):

Um, so now we're looking at saying, well, actually there's quite a few associated fees with using the Amex. And, um, and there's the benefit that was once there kind of isn't there like it was before. So, um, and with all the currency conversion, we're now looking at using something like transfer wise or the borderless account to say, Oh, we can take in money. Like we can have a us bank account taking money from clients to that us bank account. And then it never leaves that currency. And then use that to also pay the, for the Google ads. So there's, there's no currency conversion happening. Um, but that's been, that's only been recent because of the borderless account, like in the UK, even if you have a USDA count in the UK, um, it, for some reason the U S banks are really archaic. They just don't want to play internationally very nicely in the UK. Like we're all used to it, but the U S banks just don't make it easy on them. And you guys,

Speaker 1 (34:41):

Oh man, this is just making my life so easy here. I'm just going to just kind of like take this little snippet and send it's all our international clients. I mean, like there's so many things I want to talk to here at number one, you know, creating a us EIN and a us bank account is this is actually really simple. If you live overseas, you just need a registered agent. And, um, there's actually a company that'll do all this for you for like a couple hundred bucks. And, uh, and then basically that'll be your operating account for all your us clients. And then what we do is that becomes, um, at that point, we then get those folks signed up with add card and the payment source of the card becomes that operating account in the U S and art of the, uh, the other aspect of what you're talking about is really, uh, agency use case where there, you know, you're fronting the media.

Speaker 1 (35:40):

And so virtual cards is like the way to go here in terms of like keeping things like super clean at the accounting and at the card level. So you would, or you should, in my opinion, you should create and spin up a dedicated virtual card for each of your accounts and each of your clients to track what the exact spend is versus just kind of throwing it all, um, on one card and then just using, uh, pretty much ad account level stuff to kind of do all the accounting on the, on the backend. And then in terms of like value and maximizing the value of what you get on that spend, right, is I have a ton of thoughts on because you points is essentially, if we just look at points, they've just been this currency, right? All it is is like, we're not going to give you a back.

Speaker 1 (36:36):

You can get better than cash back when you get points. And really Amex in the UK is like, not even all that great. Um, as, as like what it is here in the U S but even still in a pandemic, like points is kind of a currency that like travel points is not worth anything. And so, um, art of what we've been talking with high-level media buyers is like, how can you maximize that, that value in terms of those rewards and benefits into a currency. That's not going to just depreciate or have no value, but into a currency that's ultimately going to like, appreciate or gain in value while also having some tax advantages, you know, along the way. And, uh, we will send you this link to, um, an episode of this media buyer that spends 35 million a year on ads and plays the point game religiously.

Speaker 1 (37:33):

But then he sells the points in exchange for Bitcoin. And he just has like massive holdings in Bitcoin. And it's like a way better flexible currency. It's going to increase in value over time. And you still, uh, you still get the tax advantages of no, which are way better than just like cash back, going into your operating account and then, you know, getting taxed when you want to, uh, distribute. So, uh, that's why we're building out a Bitcoin back, you know, feature on ad card is for these high level media buyers that are spending seven, eight figures. And you're sitting on, you know, like 6 million if I go to the points guy, and he's just saying like 6 million Amex points is worth like what, like 2 cents right now is what it typically is. You know, that's like 120 grand of, you know, that 120 grand of like Bitcoin that could potentially five or 10 X it's like way better than 120 grand in points that like, isn't going to be worth anything in the next, you know, 24 months, um, at all. So I'm done with my native advertisement for ad card, but those are three reasons why Utah sign up, but you, these use cases are common, right? This is not, this is not like specific to you. Uh, but you just did like three layups here for me. And

Speaker 3 (39:00):

What else do I need to say to do this thing?

Speaker 1 (39:02):

No, I mean, it's just so rare when you get like three labs, like at best, I'll get one. Um, but you we're like just a triple company. You should sponsor this for me. Um, anyways, this is great. I'm on

Speaker 3 (39:14):

When I'm in, count me in, just tell me what that that's

Speaker 1 (39:17):

Amazing. I mean, I do think that, you know, getting to a point where you can play the role and have the upside of an affiliate while using the brand assets, uh, is, is really like the cat's Meow it's, it's great, right? Like the worst part about being an affiliate is not getting to use any of the brand assets and having to front the media and then, you know, tracking is, you know, is even more challenging. Um, but you, you pretty much have the best of both worlds there. So congrats on, um, really dialing in a winning model. Uh, if I had like a dollar for every time I had an agency talk to me about what their business model should be and how they should charge clients. Um,

Speaker 3 (40:05):

Yeah, there's so many ups upshots of like doing it this way. Um, but at the end of the day, it's just the best relationship for the, for the client. You know, like if they know that they can't lose with their agency and the agency is a hundred percent in because they are invested in, they can only win when the client wins, that it means like the, the clients in the perfect situation. Um, and if we start there and then work out how we can structure that to benefit us in the best possible way as well, then everyone just is on the same page and we're growing and scaling. Uh, so yeah, it's, it's, it's a great place to do it. And there's so many other benefits as well. So you can, you can get to the point where you learn an industry so well, um, because you're just in it every day and you're making good money from it.

Speaker 3 (40:49):

It's almost you build these assets predictably valuable because once you let's say, if we're going to be a good half an hour video, that's performing really well. Um, that's a video that then you just put on your YouTube channel, it's got 4 million, 10 million, 15 million views or something immediately. It starts ranking and you get all the organic, um, kind of ranking from that as well. And that just, isn't a good niche as well. You start getting some really good traction in that capacity. So you get all these extra benefits of running your campaigns like this. Um, but yeah, it, it starts with making sure the clients in the best possible place. And then you just know you're in a super solid place. And that's why we have clients who've been with us for five, six years, as opposed to some of our employees come on. They're like, Hey, so how long do you kind of keep a client for about five years? And I'm like, all right. I thought it was like 18 months tops. I was like, okay, cool. It's a different relationship that we have.

Speaker 3 (41:40):

That's almost agency. That's, that's wild. I mean, I remember, I feel like even a year ago, I love the eighties. I was talking to you. Their attention was shoot seven to eight months. I mean, you got that in the bag there, so that's, that's, that's perfect. Yeah. It's good. It's and it's this kind of stability, right? It's like, I want to make sure that we have an agency we're not kind of looking over our shoulder and being like, Oh, this client's going to leave us anytime soon. It's like, no, we've got to kind of, we're in it with them. We're going to win it together. So it's much better place to be, um, breeze, everybody. I love it, man. You just totally rock this, this episode of rich dad, poor dad podcast. Tell everybody a little bit about, you know, what, you're up to next, how they can get in touch and, and how we can support you. Yeah. So, um, if you want to find out more, we've got Tom breeze.com, which is our training and consultancy site. That's going to be growing and building shortly. Uh, we also have the agency site, which we've been talking about, which is viewability.co.uk. And, um, I think I'm going to be working on next, is working out how I can send all these points into bit Bitcoin. That's the, that's the next step for me?

Speaker 3 (42:46):

I love it.

Speaker 5 (42:47):

Oh, there you have it, everybody. Thank you so much, Tom. Appreciate it. Thanks guys. Thanks so much for listening to another episode of the rich add more ed podcast. If you're like me and listen to podcasts on the go, go ahead and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and rich poor [inaudible] dot com slash podcast. And if you absolutely love the show, go ahead and leave a review and a comment share with a friend. If you do take a copy screenshot of it, email me zach@funneldash.com. Show me you left a review and I'll give you a free copy of the rich add or add book. Learn more about the book, go to rich ed.com to leave a review that a rich ad for at.com/review. Thanks again.